"My rule was I wouldn't recruit a kid if he had grass in front of his house.
That's not my world. My world was a cracked sidewalk." —Al McGuire

Showing posts with label Doc Rivers. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Doc Rivers. Show all posts

Monday, July 26, 2021

The All-Time Marquette 15 Man Roster

The Big East blog a little while ago put together a Marquette Fab Five lineup.

One name immediately missing is Bo Ellis. The only man in Marquette history to be on two Final Four teams, win a National Championship and design the best uniforms in human history.

                                 Image from the Marquette 2020 Record Book

I think the author did his best considering the main point of his assignment was to come up with five most recognizable names from the program. 

While we are it, if you are talking about name recognition, how does Jimmy Butler or Doc Rivers miss out? Although to be fair, Markus Howard is way higher in the record books than Butler and Rivers and Dean Meminger won the NIT when it mattered.

Anyways, these type of lists are always good to run the in the summer as it strikes up nostalgia and debate. 

Especially, since right now a #MUBB fan has only a few things to discuss: What should be done with the final scholarship, what the starting rotation might look like, Jae Crowder's NBA Finals performance making him persona non grata in Milwaukee and the Golden Eagles Alumni Team playing in the Basketball Tournament.

It got me thinking though who would be on an all-time Marquette men’s basketball roster? If there was 13 scholarships to hand out to any player who has worn a Marquette jersey, who would get it? 

So I put together my list and I added two roster spots for “walk-on’s” (aka honorable mention). 

Full disclosure for some of the Al McGuire era fans, I was not alive during that time.  I had to go off the record books and on tales of greatness recounted from my hardcore, 77 year-old MU alumni father.

                                Image from the Marquette 2020 Record Book 

If a certain player was missed on this list in the McGuire days it was probably because that player was not discussed much when my old man would talk about the glory days. For example, I did not get a lot of Earl Tatum stories growing up as a kid but I was always told how great Ellis or Butch Lee was.

                                    Image from the Marquette 2020 Record Book

One more sidenote, I started really getting into Marquette hoops in 1989. I also covered the program from 2001-2014 for either the student media, Newsradio 620WTMJ in Milwaukee or the Associated Press. So if this list does slant to towards the more current crop of players, please know it is because I watched a lot of these players more.

The Scholarship Players

Bo Ellis: I already pointed out the postseason success as a main reason Bo should be on any all-time list. He is second all-time in rebounds and one of two players ever in program history with over 1000 boards. He finished with 1663 points (11th all-time) and made the third most field goals in program history. He is tied with Tatum with for the most career wins at Marquette with 101. He was an influential player on Marquette’s future Chicago recruiting pipeline, that Doc Rivers wore 31 to honor Ellis. He could protect the rim. All the ingredients needed for the first player to give an all-time spot.

                                                   
 Photo courtesy of the Raynor Library Special Collections and Marquettewire.org

Butch Lee: The most decorated player probably to ever put on a Marquette uniform. A two-time All-American with one of those being a consensus First Team All-American in 1977-78, he is the only Marquette player to win the Naismith and Rupp award. He earned a National Championship ring when he ran the point the for the 1977 Championship team and scored a team-high 19 points in the title game. In addition, he led the ‘77 team in scoring with over 19 a game. Therefore, it is a no-brainer offering Lee an all-time roster scholarship.

                                          Photo courtesy of Marquette Athletics

Dean Meminger: Al McGuire said Meminger was “quicker than an 11:15 mass at a seaside resort.” The program's first consensus First Team All-American, he was the leader of the 1970 NIT Championship team when winning the NIT meant something (Probably could have won the NCAA had Al not gotten upset with seeding and decided to play in the NIT). His senior year he averaged 21.2 point per game on a team with only one loss and finished with a career 1637 points (14th all-time). Imagine what those numbers would have be if he A) been allowed to play as a freshman B) had the three-point line (Go about 53 seconds into this video to see his range and then enjoy the rest of the MU history highlights). That is why he goes on my all-time roster.

                                     Image from the Marquette 2020 Record Book

Doc Rivers: When combing through the record book, Doc may not have had the chops as some of the players listed above and below. He was an AP All-American honorable mention, 33rd all-time in scoring with 1234 points and just one NCAA Tournament win in three seasons. He was still a special player when he stepped onto the MECCA court. He could get to the rim for highlight dunks and also hit big shots (Go about 20 seconds in). I want special players on my roster and also a highlight reel, dynamic player. That is why Doc grabs a spot.

                                               Photo from @MUOverload

Dwyane Wade: Enough has been written and spoken about his legend so I’ll keep it short. A hundred years from now they will still be talking about his Elite Eight performance against Kentucky. He was that special and that is why he will always be on a Marquette all-time anything.

                                              Photo courtesy of Marquette Athletics

Jae Crowder: I know I am picking the former Big East Player of the Year and Second Team All-American over say Sam Worthen. In his two years, Crowder could do it all and that is why he makes my 13. Need rebounds? He was grabbing them. Need points? He could get them around the rim and from beyond the arc (Loved watching him hit that trailing three). He did some winning come March as he led MU to back-to-back Sweet 16’s. An all-time roster needs winners and a versatile players. Something that sums up Crowder.

                                              Photo courtesy of Marquettewire.org

Jerel McNeal: No one ever played better defense at guard than McNeal. If he wanted to steal the ball, he could go over to his man and just take the ball. (He is the program’s all-time leader in steals). Also, I never witnessed a player get better and better offensively in four years than McNeal. He came in as freshman being a slasher and by his senior he developed an all around offensive game that he left (At the time) as the program’s all-time leading scorer. Also, he was the most consistent of the Dominic James (Great freshman year), Wesley Matthews (Great senior year) and McNeal (Really good freshman and sophomore year, great his junior and senior year) trio so that is why I put on this roster. I still wonder who wins in one-on-one between those three (I asked McNeal back in the day during a postgame presser and he said they wouldn’t want none).

                        Photo from Marquette Athletics (obtained through Painttouches.com)

Jim Mcllvaine: I wanted a rim protector on my roster and no one swatted shots better than one of the best players to wear 34 (the other two being Tony Smith and Travis Diener). He holds the program’s all-time record with 399 blocks along with the single game record with 13 rejections. He also won the Iba award in 1994 as the nations best defender. The big man could also get it done on the offensive end being fifth all-time in field goal percentage and scored 1278 career points. Oh, and he was part of a group that helped bring Marquette out of its late 80's, early 90's doldrums by being a key player on the '94 Sweet 16 Team, its first appearance in the Sweet 16 since the 1977 Championship.

                                       Image from the Marquette 2020 Record Book

Jimmy Butler: I remember back in Jimmy's first year on the team a Marquette Tribune reporter kept asking Buzz Williams about Butler's performance after every game. Butler could score six points and we would get a question from this student reporter. I kept thinking to myself why does he keep asking about the sixth man with a limited role? Well, this student reporter knew how good Butler would be once James, Matthews and McNeal graduated. He combined with Lazar Hayward the next season to keep Marquette as a tournament team when it seemed like Marquette was destined for a rebuilding year. The next season along with Crowder and Darius Johnson-Odom, he got Marquette back to the Sweet 16 that kicked off a three-year in a row stretch. Jimmy Buckets was truly a jack of all trades. He was an elite defender with his defense being a big reason Marquette got to the 2011 Sweet 16. Outside of Aaron Hutchins and Vander Blue, no one else could come up big in the clutch. He gives the roster defensive flexibility and clutch buckets.

                                              Photo courtesy of Marquette Athletics

Maurice Lucas: Before he was known as Bill Walton's enforcer on the late 1970's Portland Trailblazers, Lucas was one of the top players on the 1974 NCAA Championship runner-up team. He scored 21 points and pulled down 13 boards in that game. His career at Marquette was also really, really, really good in his two seasons by scoring just under 1000 points and pulling down 643 boards. Had he been at Marquette two more seasons, who knows how big those numbers would have been. Some of you might say how could I put him on the all-time roster over Jim Chones? Well, I guess I didn't want to risk the wrath of some of the older alumni still bitter about Chones leaving school during the regular season (With McGuire's blessing) that may have cost a National Championship. Plus, I wanted some toughness on this roster and there was none tougher than Lucas.

                                     Image from the Marquette 2020 Record Book

Markus Howard: No one scored more points in a Marquette uniform than Howard. He is the only player in program history to score 50 points in a game and he did it three times. In addition, he owns sixth other offensive program records and is one of the top 25 NCAA all-time scoring greats. We all know what he accomplished since he only recently left Marquette. In case you were in a coma or living under a rock from 2016-2020, just take a look at some of his impressive scoring feats. He could fill up the box score quickly and that is why he makes the list.

                                           Image from the Marquette 2020 Record Book

Travis Diener: People sometimes forget there might not have been Wade's terrific Sweet 16 game against Pitt or the Elite Eight game for the ages against Kentucky if it was not for Diener. It was not just because Diener was running point most of the time. It was also because in the Round of 64, while Wade was struggling to find his shot against a pesky Holy Cross, Diener went off for 29 to avoid a potential first round upset. He then followed that game up with 26 against Mizzou in that overtime second round win. Diener played so well in his two March Madness appearances that Tom Crean would say it was a shame they could never get him back in his final two seasons in blue and gold. He was the franchise after Wade took his game to the NBA. A prime example being his 29 during his senior year carrying MU to a 63-54 win over. He scored over 1000 points alone while averaging 19.3 points per game in his final two years as he took his game to a whole new level. He could knock down threes with ease and push the tempo. It was a shame his career ended on a broken hand that cut short his senior year. Hey, he is still giving the Marquette faithful great memories in the The Basketball Tournament. Memories is just one of the many reasons Diener lands on this roster.

                                               Photo courtesy of Marquette Athletics

Steve Novak: The best pure shooter in program history. Any all-time great roster is going to need shooting and a floor spacer. When he was hitting from downtown, he could literally win a game on his own like the over 30 he hung on Number Four Louisville during his sophomore year. It was the night when he went for over 40 against UConn in Marquette’s first ever Big East game where he was as Jim Calhoun put it “Simply brilliant.” I remember thinking Marquette was going to get blown out and I had to work at 620WTMJ for most of the game that I would not be missing out if I did not get to th game. As I was driving home, I just kept hearing the radio call of Novak burying three after three that somehow my car was parked in a Bradley Center parking lot and luckily I had my press pass with me that I was able to catch the last 10 minutes. Additionally, Novak may have hit the greatest game winner in program history when he hit that three to beat Notre Dame. 

                                               Photo courtesy of Marquette Athletics

The Walk-On's (aka Honorable Mention)

Lazar Hayward: The man who played in the most games in program history, scored the third most points, has the fifth most rebounds and 96 wins while wearing blue and gold only makes walk-on status. I know, crazy right? I guess what knocked him down the board when looking at the 13 above is the lack of NCAA Tournament wins and I guess just one All-American honorable mention. I know, I know splitting hairs. Hey, he still makes the team. This team not only gets a great inside, out offensive player but one of the most crafty rebounders ever. He was listed at 6’6” but was more like 6’4" yet he was constantly asked to guard guys twice his size and come down with a rebound. Nine times out of ten he did as Buzz Williams would always say, he only saw one other player rebound like Hayward and that was Dennis Rodman. 

                                                     Photo from Seattletimes.com

Tony Miller: Okay this is the one that may really blow up some folks. I can see some going come on, this guy! Yes, I am very well aware that are a lot of other great players that could make this list especially from the late 80's and the 90's (Like Tony Smith, Trevor Powell, Ron Curry, Roney Eford, Robb Logterman, Anthony Pieper, Chris Crawford, Damon Key and Amal McCaskill). Yes, I am aware that I passed on say Don Kojis, the first major star player in program history or George Thompson who was McGuire's first major great player or Tatum who has his jersey retired and 101 wins as a player. I picked Miller because I actually witnessed his greatness and how underrated he was. While this all-time roster has got some guys who can handle the ball, there was no one better in a Marquette uniform at dishing out assists than Miller. That is why he takes the final spot. He is the program’s all-time leader by a country mile in assists with 956 which is top 10 all-time in NCAA history. His career 7.8 dimes a game ranks is top-20 in the NCAA record books. His 17 assists against Memphis in 1995 is still the school's individual single game record. The five seasons prior to Miller's arrival in 1991, Marquette was 65-78 with no Big Dance appearances and a few NIT showings. When Miller graduated in '95, Marquette made the Tournament twice with its program's first Sweet 16 in 18 years and nearly won the NIT (Mike Deane's first year). Oh, and Marquette went 81-42 in his four years on campus. He was a leader, an unselfish player and most importantly a winner. That is why he grabs my final roster spot.

                                          Photo courtesy of Marquette Athletics

Feel free to Tweet or reply in the comments section with your own list. Also, you will notice I did not put together a starting rotation as that is something that can always be discussed at a later date (Or on Twitter or MUScoop.com when folks either say I agree, I can’t believe he left off so and so, etc.).



Monday, May 11, 2009

A look back, Marquette's history with top 100 recruits...Part One, The 1980s

Last month, apropos of nothing and with no real intent behind it, I made a series of posts over on MUScoop, discussing the success or lack of success of "Top 100" recruits at a few different schools across the country. As the thread wore on, it morphed into a discussion of Marquette's success with "Top 100" recruits since Tom Crean was hired back in 1999.

After much prodding, I agreed to take it one step further, and do a retrospective of "Top 100" recruits at Marquette not just in recent years as we had done in the thread, but as far back as the available information would allow. It took much longer than expected to find all the information I wanted, but I've finally been able to compile it all.

There's a lot of information here, so rather than deluge everyone all at once, I've decided to split this into a series of posts. In this first installment, we'll be looking at the Top 100 recruits of the 1980s, and each future installment will also be done by decade, with a final wrap up to follow.

What I'm looking at in this series at it's most basic level is whether or not a player lived up to the hype of being a "Top 100" recruit. When you hear the term "Top 100 Recruit" there's a certain amount of expectations that come with that label. Much of it is statistics driven. You expect a certain amount of production right away when you see that a player is highly ranked. When an unheralded recruit averages 7 PPG as a freshman you feel like you got a sleeper. When McDonald's All American does it, you think he's a bust.

Having said that, other things factor into the evaluation. Sadly, many of Marquette's top 100 recruits haven't been able to qualify academically or stay eligible once they got in school. While that has nothing to do with their actual basketball ability, it prevents them from living up the expectations that were set coming out of high school, and it negatively impacts their evaluation. Additionally, things like attitude and leadership are factored in as well. They will not be the sole reason a player is evaluated a certain way, but a borderline player may be pushed into one category or another based upon things like team leadership and attitude.

Before we get to the actual rankings, a couple of important notes:

  • As you would expect, finding information on rankings from the pre-internet era is extremely tough. For this reason, the rankings shown in these posts go back only as far as 1980 which means we're leaving out a lot of former MU greats.
  • I've been able to find quite a bit of information on rankings from the 1980s and 1990s, but obviously there are limitations on what I can get. I'm sure there will be some people that were missed or some rankings that were missed for a particular player. If anyone can provide more information(with actual proof, not just how you remember it) I'd be happy to update the lists.
  • What you will see here is really bits and pieces of rankings done by different services throughout the years. Many of the recruiting services that we look at as the main sources of information today weren't around a decade ago, and vice versa. Trying to compare the rankings done by one service in 1984 to the rankings done by another in 2004 is nearly impossible.
  • All of the numbers are the final rankings for a player after their senior year, or the final ranking put out by the service during their senior year. That means players like Scott Christopherson, Krunti Hester, Tony Miller etc all of whom were "Top 100" Players at one time in their high school career are not included on this list.
  • One thing you will notice is that for some players the ranking will say something like 12th Team rather than giving a specific number. In the old days, several of the services did their rankings like the AP does their All American teams, with first team, second team etc. If you want to find out what ranking that corresponds to, simply multiply the team by 5. For example the 20th team means a player was ranked between 96-100 in that particular class.
  • We're looking at whether or not a player lived up to their hype, not just whether or not they lived up to the hype at Marquette. That means that transfer players(in or out) are evaluated on their whole career, not just their Marquette career. Because of that, you will find some players falling in areas that you may not agree with because of how they performed at another institution. Additionally, professional success does play a small part in the evaluation. NOTE: For players that were ranked as top 100 players coming out of high school that attended other schools before transferring to MU, the player is listed with the class that they effectively joined at MU, not their original class. The year they were ranked and the school they initially attended is listed next to the ranking.
  • Lastly, I've created a legend so that you may more easily understand my abbreviations that are going to follow. There's a lot of different services involved here, and typing them all out each time gets to be a bit tedious. You'll want to consult this when you look at the actual rankings(click the image for a more readable version).

Without any further ado, here's the rankings for the 1980s, followed by the analysis...again click the picture for a better view.


Looking at that list, you might be surprised to see that many top 100 players given the results that MU had in the 1980s. The team made the NCAA tournament only three times, and the decade ended with the disastrous Bob Dukiet era. But when you look how that supposed high school talent worked out, maybe the results become a little more understandable.

The Hits(in chronological order)
  • Doc Rivers - I'm not sure that any player in the 1980s lived up to their billing more than Doc. A first team Street and Smith's All American, and the first McDonald's All American in Marquette history, Doc was a stud the second he stepped on campus. He held the freshman scoring record for nearly 25 years, and he still holds the record for freshman field goal percentage. He was a Chuck Taylor All American in 1982, and an AP All American in 1983. After three seasons at MU he declared for the NBA draft and played more than a decade in the NBA.
  • Dwayne Johnson - The original DJ, his is a tail of both success and regret. On the court, he was great. He averaged 12.3 PPG as a sophomore, and was the team's leading scorer and rebounder as a junior. Unfortunately, he was not as good in the classroom. Prior to his senior season DJ was declared academically ineligible and suspended for his senior year. He transferred to UW-Whitewater, where he was a 2nd team All American, and the WIAC player of the year in his only season.
  • Mandy Johnson - He didn't do much scoring until his senior year, but with the talent around him, it wasn't necessary. Mandy was an efficient offensive player, who led the team in field goal percentage as a sophomore, but more importantly he was the floor general allowing the guys around him to get their points while he ran the offense. Really though, he made his mark as one of the best defensive guards in MU history. He finished his career second in MU history in steals, and held that position until this season when he was surpassed by Jerel McNeal. He still holds the MU record for steals as a senior, and is in the top 10 for the sophomore and junior records.
  • Kerry Trotter - MU's second McDonald's All American, Trotter may not have totally lived up to that billing, but he still turned out to be a very good player, worthy of a top 100 ranking. He scored in double figures his final three years at MU, including a high of 13.6PPG as a senior, and was the team's leading scorer and rebounder as a junior. He played professionally in Europe and was twice the MVP of the Belgian league.
  • Mark Anglavar - One of the great shooters in MU history. When his career ended in 1991, he was the leader in 3-Point Field Goals Made, 3-Point Field Goal Percentage, and he was the leader in every single season 3-Point statistic. He's since been surpassed by other players, but make no mistake there were few that could shoot the ball like him in MU history. Not only that, but he's still in the top 10 for Freshman assists despite not actually being a point guard.
The Misses(again chronological order)
  • Lloyd Moore - There may not have been a bigger miss in MU history. Coming out of high school, nearly everyone thought Moore would be great. In addition to the Street and Smith ranking, he was an Adidas and Parade All American as a senior and many predicted that Moore would be the next great MU big man. Instead, he was the biggest bust in MU history, both literally and figuratively. He tore a ligament in his knee prior to his freshman campaign which resulted in an extended absence. When he returned he was so out of shape that he managed to only play in 15 games, where he averaged less than 2 PPG and 2 RPG. He transferred prior to his sophomore year, and was a decent player at Rutgers for two years before he was dismissed from the team for failure to keep his weight under control.
  • Tony Reeder - Never lived up to the billing of a top 65 player while at MU. His only significant accomplishment is being among the All Time Top 10 in blocked shots as freshman, with a whopping 15 blocks. Unfortunately it didn't get better after that. He averaged under 8 PPG as a junior, and was averaging under 7 PPG as a senior when he was declared academically ineligible, ending his disappointing career.
  • Tom Copa - Probably the toughest call of this decade, I'm sure some will argue this point with me, but hear me out. Yes Copa scored almost 1000 points and grabbed over 500 rebounds, but when you are ranked among the top 65 players in a high school class, more is expected. He never averaged more than 8.5 PPG, and his scoring declined every year from his sophomore to senior year. Further, his rebounding went down from 5.5 RPG to 4.6 RPG as well. At best, he was serviceable in college, posting career averages of 8.2 PPG and 4.7 RPG, but serviceable isn't what you're looking for when you get a top 65 player. To his credit, Copa blossomed after college, parlaying his success in Europe into a back up role with the San Antonio Spurs during the 1991-92 season. I'm open to arguments on changing him to a "hit", but it's going to take a lot of convincing.
  • Walter Downing - MU just missed out on Downing the first time around, losing a close recruiting battle to Ray Meyer and DePaul. A McDonald's All American in high school, Downing never approached that sort of success at DePaul or at MU. He averaged 7.5 PPG and 3.5 RPG as a part time player at MU.
  • Gerald Posey - A Prop 48 casualty as a freshman, Posey was supposed to contribute right away once he became eligible as a sophomore. Instead, he had disagreements with Bob Dukiet which led to a famed incident where he stormed off the court during warm ups prior to the St. Thomas game in December 1988. By January, he was gone, transferring to Division III Trenton State College in New Jersey.
  • Corey Floyd - Perhaps the final nail in Bob Dukiet's coffin, Floyd was expected to team with Posey as the back court of the future starting in 1988. Like Posey, he was from New Jersey and had been a great high school player. Unfortunately, the similarities did not end there. He too had academic issues, but instead of being a Prop 48 player, he was not admitted to Marquette and had to spend two years at Hutchinson Community College in Kansas to meet NCAA eligibility requirements. He then spent two years as a back up at Providence, where his only on the court contribution of note was participation in a brawl against Rhode Island that led to a suspension.
So there you have it. As you can see, the top 100 rankings weren't exactly a great predictor of success when it came to Marquette recruits in the 1980s. Out of 12 recruits, only 5 really panned out, for a success rating of 41.6%. You'll have to stay tuned for the future posts to see if this rating improves as the years go by. I'm saving my conclusions until the final part of this series, we'll have to wait and see if my theory holds up in the future years.

Obviously, this is just my way of doing it, there is no real quantitative analysis for this kind of subject. It's tough to define living up to the hype, but as Potter Stewart said, "I know it when I see it". Feel free to disagree...

Monday, June 23, 2008

MU to Doc: Congrats

This appeared in Sunday's Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, and in USA Today.

Kinda nice having Marquette having to take out full page ads congratulating Warrior alumni on winning NBA championships every other year.


Wednesday, June 18, 2008

Congrats to Doc Rivers, NBA Champion

For the second time in three years, a Marquette graduate is an NBA Champion.

Congratulations to Doc Rivers, head coach of the 2008 NBA Champion Boston Celtics!

Sunday, November 04, 2007

Marquette Family Updates

Not to dilute the great news of the Otule signing, but there are a couple other developments today that are of interest to Marquette fans.

First and foremost, Marquette great, Doc Rivers' father passed away in Chicago today. Grady Alexander Rivers Sr. was 76. Please keep Doc and his family in your thoughts.

Second, Lute Olson of the Arizona Wildcats (#17) is taking an indefinite leave of absence. Former MU coach Kevin O'Neill has assumed the head coaching duties.